Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Pauly on October 20, 2012 at 5:20pm

I continue to tell my friends and family members to watch their carbs even though they dont have diabetes. Personally i think high BG is one of the causes of cancer. As to the heart, brushing your teeth and keeping bacteria out of the mouth is a link to the heart health and I think there is more to come on that.

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Permalink Reply by Stemwinder on October 20, 2012 at 6:03pm

Well Brian, At least they had the honesty to admit it was a failed experiment. Even though their goals were not realized some good did come out of the study. Those that did lose weight ended up with fewer meds and in some cases T2 problems were delayed.

I agree with you that T2 cannot be prevented only delayed. If you are what they call pre-diabetic you are still diabetic it is just that you have a chance to treat it without medical intervention. I have never understand the pre-diabetic term, I equate it with the old saying that says a woman can't be just a little bit pregnant.

Delaying T2 symptoms is a worthy goal. I and most T2's would be better off if we had employed the necessary delaying tactics from the beginning.

Thanks for bringing this study to our attention.

Gary

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Permalink Reply by Brian (bsc) on October 20, 2012 at 6:07pm

I think you are right, I do commend the scientists such as Dr. David Nathan who showed integrity by making what was obviously a hard decision to terminate a decade of hard work.

I think all of us T2 diabetics do better with diet and exercise interventions, and delaying the progression of our condition is important. I just believe that the key is tight blood sugar control and to do that we need to worry about the carbs, not the amount of fat and the portion control.

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Permalink Reply by FHS on October 20, 2012 at 6:57pm

There seems to be two reports here. One talks about the results of the AHEAD study which, as far as I can tell, shows that people already diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes do not show decreased incidence of macrovascular related incidents afer lifestyle changes involving diet and exercise and a concomittant decrease in weight along with other markers associated with cardiovascular disease.

This one I wonder about because the report says that the peak weight loss was around 10% and the average weight loss over the course of the study was 5%. The report calls these changes significant, which they can be if you're talking about a statistically significant change from the base weight. Certainly, any improvement is good, but without details it's difficult to see what's going on. It the average participant weighed 250 lbs at the start of the study, the peak weight loss would be down to 225 lbs with long term staying at around 240 lbs. I just wonder if that's really enough of a change to really make much long term difference. I wonder how much body composition changed for one thing.

The second report is on the prevention of Type 2 diabetes through diet and exercise. I'm not even sure how that discussion is relavent to the study itself because that doesn't appear to even be addressed through the AHEAD methodology.

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Permalink Reply by Brian (bsc) on October 22, 2012 at 5:04am

You are right, the link is not obvious. According to a paper by Delahanty and Nathan "The Diabetes Prevention Program (DPP) and its followup, the Diabetes Prevention Program Outcomes Study (DPPOS), and Look AHEAD (Action for Health in Diabetes), are long-term randomized clinical trials that have potential to direct diabetes care and medical nutrition therapy for obesity, prediabetes and type 2 diabetes (T2DM) now and in the future".

It was Dr. Anne Peters, quoted in the AHA article that said "We do know that weight loss and exercise can prevent diabetes." Look Ahead showed nothing about preventing diabetes, that was the DPP.

The Look-Ahead study was an effort to place the Diabetes Prevention Program (DPP) on a stronger evidential footing, and it failed. The DPP is our governments sole killer program to defeat diabetes, it is based on having patients lose weight by eating a fat and calorie restricted diet and exercising.  An initial controlled study found that pre-diabetics who followed this regime were less likely to be diagnosed with outright diabetes by the end of the study. This was interpreted as "preventing" diabetes. But I call it bull.

All these patients already had diabetes since they were pre-diabetic. Some of them may have "managed" their condition better by losing weight and exercising, but proving that the diabetes didn't progress quickly is hardly evidence that diabetes was prevented. I suspect that pretty much everyone that entered the study having abnormal glucose metabolism left the study still with an abnormal glucose metabolism.

So, the NIH in alliance with the ADA and other pharmaceutial and agribusiness companies started this study. Heart disease is the number one killer of diabetics, rather than measuring surrogate outcomes, if you could prove that heart disease was reduced by using the DPP protocol, then the DPP program would be on a strong evidentiary foundations.

Ooops. It didn't work out so well. This is a "huge" event. I expect a web of lies and deceptions over the coming months as everyone tries to backpedal. It will still take years to undo the damage from the DPP, but the cracks in the foundation are starting.

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Permalink Reply by pancreaswanted on October 21, 2012 at 4:08am

i dont know about the AHEAD study and am type 1, but read taube´s "good fat bad fat" and was very surprised by facts about t2 and genetics, obesity, overeating and exercise. making sure to eat less carbs and worry less about fat may be what it is all about. and for people to realize it is not just a lifestyle disease brought on by the patient!

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Permalink Reply by Brian (bsc) on October 22, 2012 at 5:07am

Actually, the results are ominous for T1s. The study after all showed that a low fat calorie restricted diet which lowered blood pressure and lipids did not reduce heart disease in diabetics. What does this mean about all the pressure we get to take statins and reduce cholesterol? Does taking a statin and lowering cholesterol make a difference to any of us?

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Permalink Reply by Aeon on October 22, 2012 at 8:25am

I am deferring comment until I know more except to say that I thought that vo2max and insulin sensitivity both increase (improve) with exercise in obese people who otherwise do not exercise. The extent to which that translates into age of DM onset, presumed change in risk of CVD, mortality/survival time, or measured obesity is not strong (I thought) but moderate at best. Now we are told any evidence for a causative relationship is very weak or completely absent(if I understand correctly).

What am I going to do? I don't know. Maybe err on the side of caution which means to do the thing that is least risky.

Don't expect any less misinformation than we already see repeated in every corner for the next generation. It may take forever to sort out.

Now let's watch the experts squirm their way out of this. What will they claim next?

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Permalink Reply by Capin101 on October 22, 2012 at 11:26am

This is very interesting. I am interested to see if this study will have any impact to the practice of prescribing statins as BSC elluded to. I feel more confused than ever when it comes to prescribing Statins to diabetics?

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Permalink Reply by BadMoonT2 on October 22, 2012 at 3:30pm

I wish the improvement on A1c that presumably resulted from weight loss and exercise had been included in the articles. Every chart I've seen of the occurrence of CVD in relation to A1c says that its occurrence is close to normal until 5.5, then it rises at an ever increasing rate. This study does not negate those statistics. So I think keeping my A1c as low as possible is still the best bet to avoid CVD. It would also seem to vindicate my choice not to take statins.

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Permalink Reply by Vancouversailor on October 23, 2012 at 10:56am

The results of this study go contrary to my personal experience and beliefs.
My main belief is that there are two factors that come to play when we develop a condition like diabetes. One is our genes that determine how susceptible or vulnerable we are to the condition. The second is the choices we make, and whether we let our guard down or do what is required to protect ourself.
In a way it's similar to the discussion about lung cancer. On the one hand we hear about someone who's 75 and has been a chain smoker their whole life and are still healthy. (obviously they don't have the genes that make them vulnerable to lung cancer.) On the other hand you hear of a young person who gets lung cancer after being exposed to second hand cigarette smoke in their workplace for a few years (e.g. a restaurant waitress who did inherit the genes that make her susceptible to lung cancer).
I'm originally from Norway and come from a family where a blood disorder that makes people very vulnerable to diabetes (hereditary hemochromatosis - HH) is rampant. My paternal grandmother had diabetes and went blind before she died and two uncles succumbed to heart attacks before age 50. I was diagnosed with HH at age 40.
However, my parents are both in their late 80s and still very healthy with no sign of diabetes. My sisters and nephews and nieces are also in good health. What they have in common in that they've always lived healthy lifestyles, gotten lots of exercise and are slim. That was also the case for me until I left Norway for Canada in my lste 30s.
After a decade of driving instead of using my old Norwegian bike, and too many visits to Macdonalds and too much other junk food in place of the healthy fare we ate in Norway, I'd put on 60 lbs. At that point I was diagnosed with diabetes type II.
I have since (for 14 years) managed my diabetes withour medications by reverting back to a healthy diet based on the Glycemic Index and no junk food as well as three daily walks. The best results came after I'd managed to lose 40 of the 60 lbs I had gained. For the past 10 years my hba1c has been stable in the 5.2 - 6.5 range.
So regardless of this study and the results, nobody can tell me that there is not a strong and definite link between lifestyle/weight and diabetes type II and the compliations that often follow with that disease.

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Permalink Reply by Brian (bsc) on October 23, 2012 at 12:43pm

I don't think anyone would question the idea that diet and exercise are a very powerful way of managing diabetes and I congratulate you on being able to manage your condition so well. But managing is different than preventing. I suspect that if you stopped your diet and exercise you would shortly be back with high blood sugars. That is not preventing diabetes, it is managing it.

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