Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Marty on April 17, 2012 at 9:15pm

You know, I have felt so beaten down by doctors. I have always been a 'yes' person, the good little patient who just blindly went along with whatever she was told. Well I am approaching the final 1/3 of my life most likely,and do NOT prefer to spend it with all the aches and pains and nausea of rx drugs just so someone can make their quota. Thanks for all the enlightening conversation people !!

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Permalink Reply by JaninaWalker on April 22, 2012 at 12:19am

MissKitka, we are friends too, so can I also participate in your file on statins? I also read a lot by doctors on all sides, and I have been D for 31 years and I do my own treating via supplements, as I believe in orthomolecular medicine. I've been cured of the neuropathy since 2003, due to my applying supplements.
My view on Statins is that inhibiting the production does not stop the body using whatever cholesterol it does produce to patch damage, so when it is finished the first come first served emergency measures, it may find itself short on cholesterol for making hormones and muscle cell walls so that could account for the muscle aches you refer to in your previous family members. Rhabdomyolysis is worth looking up and it is a recognized side effect of statins.
So my approach is to take plenty of antioxidants in food and supplements, and hence the need for cholesterol production falls naturally. I respect your desire to keep yourself informed and doctors appreciate self motivated patients who know what they are doing. So your GP is all you need for the routine testing that needs to be done to monitor one's health.
I personally would not choose to consume a lot of saturated fat, as I prefer to be slim and get good fats in nuts. But my main protein is beef cooked on an incline, so I discard the fat mostly.
I believe the greatest cause of internal damage is oxidation and that even occurs with exercise and digesting any food, not only proteins or meats. So just taking the antioxidants provides a solution as they donate electrons to balance the free radicals. Antioxidants don't gobble them up as people claim, but just balance them with the needed missing electrons.

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Permalink Reply by timmy on April 18, 2012 at 4:17am

i agree with maurie, that is a very broad statement to make re: veges all being depressed.
Kitty it sounds like your a staunch bernstein groupie, hflc rah rah...thats all fine, but im sure statins do help some people

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Permalink Reply by Gerri on April 22, 2012 at 2:22pm

Timmy,

Why do you need to trash Dr. Bernstein? Some people follow him, many more don't. Individual choice, of course, & not necessary to call someone a groupie, Dr. Bernstein a demi-god & other disparaging comments you make about him.

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Permalink Reply by Timothy on April 18, 2012 at 1:46am

Vegetarians get so depressed that they can't even bring themselves to enjoy simple pleasures like lamb chops.
I once Had a Vegetarian friend that could not even bring himself to eat FILLET MIGNON !
NOW THAT IS DEPRESSION. At least now I know why.

Everyone knows that hamburgers are mood stabilizers. Ask anyone.

Back to the topic. My doctor insisted I take a statin and my total cholesterol is 150.

Hdl about 55 and I cant remember my last LDL but I know it's low.

Exercise is the key to keeping your cholesterol and HDL/LDL in order,
Diet effects Triglicerides. A little of diet can change cholesterol esp if you give up animal products. Most of our Cholesterol is produced by our own bodies.

I just don't do anything that seems to not fit for me.
I'm sure statins help some people. I just don't think they are needed for me. If my numbers get out of whack or if I develop some corinary obstructions, I'll consider the options.

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Permalink Reply by HPNpilot on April 18, 2012 at 9:40am

I am shocked at how unscientific this thread is....people just cite belief or voodoo instead of science published in authoritative, peer-reviewed journals. When I am making a decision as to whether to take a medication, I'd like to see what are the effects in a large population ? Is it effective ? Is it safe ? What are the side effects ?

I don't care what some fool without training on the internet says - anyone can make a web site these days and complain that drug x made them stupid, sick, etc.

The bottom line is that there are multiple studies that show that reducing cholesterol in diabetics dramatically reduces the incidence of coronary heart disease (CHD).

Here is a graph summarizing the results of some of the many studies on this:

The studies clearly show a strong correlation with reduction in coronary heart disease events with reduction in cholesterol. HOW you achieve the reduction is your choice....for some people, diet and exercise work, for others, it may take statins to reduce the risk.

Heart disease is the complication that ends up killing most diabetics. It's not something to ignore.

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Permalink Reply by Marty on April 18, 2012 at 12:24pm

Dear HPN Pilot - Do realize that everything medical "experts" say usually reverse themselves to the contrary within a year or less? Shellfish is BAD for you....oh no, it isn't afterall - its good for your cholesterol. ECT ECT ECT ECT ECT. Here's the thing...People Know Their Own Bodies and how they react to meds - Doctors DO NOT. They are not living the life you are - with me taking 15 pills and one shot of insulin a day. I wouldn't stop my bp meds or something as important as that without asking BUT - also, if you say, well, I'm overweight and I know all these Diabetes meds you are prescribing for me are packing on the lbs - they just look at you with a blank stare. The point is NONE OF THEM CARE about your situation - they just get off on being the DR and passing out RXS. I hate to say its true, I have one two doctors in particular that I like very much - but they (once again) DO NOT CARE about me - they are writing RXS to fill their quota so they can keep their jobs in a practice. Sorry, (no, I'm not) -but I have just reached my limit and am tired of feeling sick everyday because of the muscle pain from statins as well as the elevated blood sugar and many more things. I'm not going to be a slave to meds anymore - I'm not going to waste what time I have left here on this earth in the shape I'm in.

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Permalink Reply by HPNpilot on April 18, 2012 at 12:36pm

#1) If you are having muscle pain or other side effects, that is a problem. If your physician doesn't listen, then you need to find someone else.

And note carefully above that I did *not* say the solution was to take a drug. I said that particular study showed that cholesterol was linked to CHD. And I said there are multiple ways to address that.

#2)I do agree with you that you have to listen to your specific body and people
have idiosyncratic reactions to medications. You definitely have to be your own advocate. The point I am making is Joe suckfinger , CNN or Fox web site, or Betty Boops Diabetes Cure-All web site is not a source of accurate information. If you want to really understand all the things that go wrong, you need to go to the scientific literature and sort it out.

Unfortunately, the general public's science education is miserable today.

#3) Many physicians do not practice medicine in a scientific fashion...they just work on rote learning from 20 years ago in med school and what "worked" on the last patient. Few of them practice evidence-based medicine. An MD is basically a glorified technicians degree with an apprenticeship, like an auto mechanic. Few physicians have done or continue to do original scientific research. And few keep up with the latest knowledge.

It takes time and effort to find the precious few that know what they are doing and those few appreciate knowledgeable patients that are interested in their own care.

Just think about how many people in school got C's or D's in class. No one likes to think their physician is the C student. But the odds are he/she was.....

As for me, I want to live the next 30-40 years I have with good quality of life. I do *not* want to die early of a heart attack as most diabetics do. So I am going to learn as much as I can and do what I need to to reduce the risk. Of course that means good blood sugar control among other things, and if it means , after studying the risks and rewards, taking steps to dramatically reduce my LDL I will do that too.

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Permalink Reply by HPNpilot on April 18, 2012 at 1:54pm

For completeness, here is an abstract of a study published in the British journal "Lancet" looking at whether statins had a benefit in over 18,000 patients with diabetes.

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Efficacy of cholesterol-lowering therapy in 18,686 people with diabetes in 14 randomised trials of statins: a meta-analysis.
(PMID:18191683)
Abstract
Citations
BioEntities
Related Articles
Cholesterol Treatment Trialists' (CTT) Collaborators, Kearney PM, Blackwell L, Collins R, Keech A, Simes J, Peto R, Armitage J, Baigent C
Lancet [2008, 371(9607):117-25]
Type: Journal Article, Meta-Analysis, Research Support, Non-U.S. Gov't

DOI: 10.1016/S0140-6736(08)60104-X

Abstract Highlight Terms
Gene Ontology(1) Diseases(4) Chemicals(3)
BACKGROUND: Although statin therapy reduces the risk of occlusive vascular events in people with diabetes mellitus, there is uncertainty about the effects on particular outcomes and whether such effects depend on the type of diabetes, lipid profile, or other factors. We undertook a prospective meta-analysis to help resolve these uncertainties.

METHODS: We analysed data from 18 686 individuals with diabetes (1466 with type 1 and 17,220 with type 2) in the context of a further 71,370 without diabetes in 14 randomised trials of statin therapy. Weighted estimates were obtained of effects on clinical outcomes per 1.0 mmol/L reduction in LDL cholesterol.

FINDINGS: During a mean follow-up of 4.3 years, there were 3247 major vascular events in people with diabetes. There was a 9% proportional reduction in all-cause mortality per mmol/L reduction in LDL cholesterol in participants with diabetes (rate ratio [RR] 0.91, 99% CI 0.82-1.01; p=0.02), which was similar to the 13% reduction in those without diabetes (0.87, 0.82-0.92; p<0.0001). This finding reflected a significant reduction in vascular mortality (0.87, 0.76-1.00; p=0.008) and no effect on non-vascular mortality (0.97, 0.82-1.16; p=0.7) in participants with diabetes. There was a significant 21% proportional reduction in major vascular events per mmol/L reduction in LDL cholesterol in people with diabetes (0.79, 0.72-0.86; p<0.0001), which was similar to the effect observed in those without diabetes (0.79, 0.76-0.82; p<0.0001). In diabetic participants there were reductions in myocardial infarction or coronary death (0.78, 0.69-0.87; p<0.0001), coronary revascularisation (0.75, 0.64-0.88; p<0.0001), and stroke (0.79, 0.67-0.93; p=0.0002). Among people with diabetes the proportional effects of statin therapy were similar irrespective of whether there was a prior history of vascular disease and irrespective of other baseline characteristics. After 5 years, 42 (95% CI 30-55) fewer people with diabetes had major vascular events per 1000 allocated statin therapy. INTERPRETATION: Statin therapy should be considered for all diabetic individuals who are at sufficiently high risk of vascular events.

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42 fewer per 1000 had major vascular events.

Note the careful words they used: statin therapy should be *considered*.

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Permalink Reply by Marty on April 18, 2012 at 4:10pm

I Love #3

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Permalink Reply by still_young_at_heart on April 18, 2012 at 12:36pm

Marty -

I am sorry you think that your physicians are prescribing drugs that harm you in order to make extra money. You should fire your doctors and find ones that are honest. It is hard to believe that an individual would go college and medical school for 7 years and then work as an intern and resident with long hours and minimal pay so that they might make extra money by pushing drugs. There are easier ways to make a lot of money.

I have no problem with your decision not to take statins but there is no need to slander a class of people.

Maurie

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Permalink Reply by Marty on April 18, 2012 at 4:15pm

I'm not slandering "a class of people" Maurie. I just know what has happened to me personally. When I have gone to two of my doctors with information I have gleaned from the internet (worthy sources such as the ADA) and simply ask for their comments on things the attitude is 'shut up and take what I give you and what I say' I'm an adult - one who has put up with that for YEARS.....I have maybe 20 years at the outside left in life. I'm just tired of taking all of these meds which I feel are some of the source of my pain. I told my one doctor that I was more interested in the quality of my life than the quanity and I sincerely meant that.

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